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What you said about: Premium rate industry - industry discussion page
Re "Re: point 2)" posted by Grumbletext the mgnt. at 14:42 24/02/05 ...
oh, by the way, the other thing is that has been put to me is that they are doing it here precisely because this has been, to date anyway, a consumer-trusted independent website. The idea is that no-one would trust them if they were doing it through their own websites... whether that view has proven correct or not remains to be seen!
Re "Re: point 2)" posted by angry_teddy40 at 12:35 24/02/05 ...
Hi Angry Teddy,
I can't blame you for your viewpoint - it is one that clearly others share.
The problem is; I can't really think what to do to reassure people that this forum is not being run in the pockets of the mobile operators, specifically Vodafone.
Here's one thing - in my opinion, the jist of what you are getting at is 100% correct. I do not doubt for a second that Vodafone and the other networks have knowingly and deliberately profited handsomely from this dubious business over several years.
Some of them may intend to do so going forward, maybe even Vodafone - all I can tell you is that I am convinced that the guys we are working with here I believe intend bona fide to at least get STOP and STOP ALL working properly.
It's simply too lucrative a business for them to risk it being made illegal and so stopped 100% in its tracks across the board. You may have noticed we have an endorsement on the site from Sir George Young MP. He continues to be vocal on the subject in Parliament and certainly the idea of making premium rate illegal has been discussed there. So, no-one's got a halo, I think they just see this as the way to keep this gravy train on the rails.
But SOMETHING is a LOT better than NOTHING which is what 2 years of studying the regulatory environment has convinced me is the vital contribution from the likes of ICSTIS and OFCOM.
Anyone want to sue the networks for past demeanours? Be my guest...
By the way, one idea I want to introduce here, just to show I and Grumbletext are NOT their patsy, is that the networks may be smokescreening by cleaning up the premium rate texting area... I say this because I had an anonymous call this morning from an industry person who made the claim that the biggest ripoff/scam in the mobile business is calling an 0870 number from your handset. As you know, almost all businesses in the UK have an 0870 number so the volumes of calls to them from mobiles must be pretty substantial.
I just checked with my own mobile company, Orange, and could only partially substantiate this. On contract, even the cheapest, the cost is the normal 10p per minute. However on Pay As You Go there were varying tariffs, the highest of which was 35p per minute. On the face of it, I can't think of any justification for such a huge premium over the landline 10p per minute rate - but then again I don't know what normal landline call costs are on the cheapest PAYG rate, maybe they are also pretty high. The guy I was talking to suggested that some Vodafone customers pay as high as 50p per minute - that sounds like a pretty enormous profit margin to me.
Anyone who can add any info on this issue, please feel free..
Are we sure that we fully understand what is really going on there? Why is a multi-billion pound a year business using Adrian to do their dirty laundry?
Although old, the story below clearly shows that they knew what they were doing and were involved in anti-competition practices back in 2000. You can only imagine how sophisticated this got today. The biggest mobile player in the world using this little web site to do their dirty work and get rid off the competition� Nice one
�By Kieren McCarthy
Published Wednesday 15th November 2000 15:18 GMT
Yesterday we ran a story detailing Vodafone's attempts to shut down a mobile spamming company. The company concerned, Webcom International, sends out text messages to millions of phones every week. It is breaking the law says Vodafone; no we're not, says Webcom.
Anyway, all of this was a bit rich for a number of our readers who emailed The Reg, all making the same point. That the only spam text message they'd ever received came from Vodafone itself.
Click Here
An example message that popped up on one reader's phone was: "Vodafone Homeline saves you up to 33% off your home bill. Terms & Conditions apply. Call 0845 4581*** for details. Quote *1".
Now what makes this type of message alright when Webcom's are somehow illegal? (Answer: because we don't make money from it when Webcom sends messages.)
Vodafone, you are a hypocrite and we tut repeatedly at you. ��
Re "Re: which bit isn't clear?" posted by content_monitor at 21:17 22/02/05 ...
Hi, I have absolutely no links with this industry at all, I came to this board as a concerned parent of teenage children who had been ripped off by Jamster.
I believe it is very important to keep the Network Providers and Sevice Providers interested in this site, whether their actions are sincere or not is irrelevent. As this site continues to grow then these Providers will see the number of disgruntled customers there are out there. If they go away we are left with nothing but a board to moan on.
THEY SEE WHAT WE POST, THEY KNOW HOW WE FEEL.
From what I now understand of this industry the Network Provider facilitates delivery of the messages.
The Sevice Providers are the companies that send the messages.
You can not blame a Network for delivering a message addressed to you, no more than you can blame the Post Office for delivering the 1,000 credit card offer you received that week.
However the Network Providers does have a legal obligation because they deduct the money from you credit or bank, therefore you have a contract with them. If a Networks tells you to phone the spammer directly, you should always reply "No I pay you, they are your customer not mine"
If you feel you have been defrauded then the Network Provider has a legal obligation to investigate and must respond.
From what I have learnt it is the Service Providers that need to be bought into line as they are the companies that actual send the messages and the spammers are their customers.
From my own experience of dealing with O2 on this matter, I only got things moving when I found out the name of the Service Provider (MBlox) and complained to them. Within an hour Jamster phoned me apologised and sent me a cash (yes cash) refund, including compensation for expenses.
I am sure that all Network and Sevice Providers are very reputable companies, just blinded by the amount of money swimming around in this unsavory spamming business.
Providers please note, these scams effect mainly young people and for every one person that complains there are 10,000 that do not. Get you industry in line or legislation will eventually hit you where it hurts.
Happy Hunting
JamSpongers.
PS I stand to be corrected on any of the points made, as said I'm still trying to understand the mechanics of this industry.
Fair enough. However, we must make sure that we follow the word of law and do things properly here no matter how slow, boring, tedious or difficult it might be. As some people noticed, Voda was clearly breaking all the rules. They simply should not get involved here full stop. It is not their place to decide or act on the basis of the information posted here.
If we don't improve the way this forum is used by Vodafone at the moment, we are no different than those spammers that we wanted to stop in the first place and this forum will eventually will eventually be shut down. That's not going to be good for anyone.
No matter what people here think, crime is not a good way to combat crime and we just have to be more careful when it comes to using the information posted on this forum (VODAFONE TAKE NOTE HERE). If we don't believe in dealing with these matters legally, then we are no different from the crooks we are trying to expose.
Just because Vodafone suddenly decided to do one thing (and we all know they were doing another for many, many years and still continue to do it) does not mean their actions will serve the needs and help the consumer. They are just doing what they know best and that's making money. Of course, they are plenty large enough to run their own private charity organisation, but at the end of the day, in a broader context, we understand and know what they are all about - generating more money for themselves. This forum should not be a part of this.
I hope we can keep grumbletext FREE, FAIR and JUST and without further corporate involvement (which brings nothing but lies, deceit, hypocrisy and above all greed into the equation).
It sounds like you and this web site are being used to serve Vodafone's own business objectives. Don't know how you got into this but I think your initial intentions were honest and good (judging by the rest of your site) and when certain parties from Vodafone approached you, you probably didn't realise what you were getting into...
Vodafone could, without a doubt, create their own web forum and deal with this issue themselves. But alas, they decided to approach an open forum instead and turn it into a weapon. Why are they hiding behind you? This simply isn't kosher.
There is plenty of evidence that Vodafone is overstepping the mark here. The use of information here to do what they are doing in the industry is illegal. I agree with previous posts and don't think we can replace ICSTIS with this travesty which is used for Vodafone's own benefits. Yes, it might help some people down the line, it might even get rid of a few rogue operators too, but at the end of the day, it will also ensure that all other small competition is crushed under the same wave. We have plenty of evidence that this is increasingly happening since they approached you. Some of the legal proceedings have already started and your site is likely to be in the middle of all that, which I think is unfair, as you have been misled. If you think about it, we all have a problem or two with the law. The law is not perfect, justice not always served. However, it just doesn�t seam right to take the law into our own hands. There are reasons for this, no one wants anarchy.
I read some posts here which were claiming that someone managed to shut someone down in a matter of hours. This is a WIILD MOB approach and resembles a crowd in the street lynching anyone they come across, just to satisfy their hunger for blood. While I understand that spam is a big problem, this hardly justifies the primitive and above all ILLEGAL approach applied and implemented here. The overzealousness to shut someone down without proper investigation and assessment of evidence or even without evidence altogether (acting on rumours) is simply not appropriate and not worthy of this forum. You shouldn't be involved in this.
While I don�t think anyone has a problem with the open information and its sharing on this forum, I feel that the majority of us would have a problem with the way Vodafone is using this information to realise own ambitions.
The bottom line is that this forum and you are being abused and misled. The information and posts here are used by Vodafone in an illegal manner and this could have major consequences for this site...
Re "Re: Comment and plea to industry posters" posted by Grumbletext the mgnt. at 2:01 22/02/05 ...
Vodafone Scam
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re "Re: Comment and plea to industry posters" posted by Grumbletext the mgnt. at 2:01 22/02/05 ...
Prove it. Don't believe a word of it Even if what you are saying is remotely credible, what's behind the curtains? Why is Vodafone really doing this? What are your real motives? Since the incorporation of Vodafone, the company simply never did anything to help the consumer as such unless it was helping itself indirectly at the same time. Vodafone, just like any other big corporation was simply helping themselves, just like any other corporate giant. Everything in life is based on interest and gain so it's pointless to claim otherwise. By associating yourself with this forum, you are rendering it useless. It is no longer open, fair, unbiased and honourable. You are just using it for your own corporate gains ICSTIS isn't perfect but at least it's aim isn't to generate profits and to put the spin on this forum. The whole point of ICSTIS is that it is independent and can't directly benefit from damaging the competition which can't be said about Vodafone. Vodafone's services are leaving a lot to be desired in the customer satisfaction, value for money and ICSTIS compliance department. The fact that you are acting as bullies and have the ability, power, money and resources to conduct your services behind ICSTIS' back and continue to apply these dirty "so called" clean-up tactics behind the closed curtain doesn't mean that you are morally right.. Don't be fooled into thinking that people here can't see through all this. By discrediting ICSTIS on this forum, you are clearly showing to the industry and all the consumers that something in your management structure is AWOL and out of control. Voda is turning into a vigilante and the whole exercise becomes pointless and unfair. This is why we should see to it that some measures are taken and investigations conducted into Vodafone�s latest, illegal actions. Maybe we should involve MPs into this matter and finally get to the bottom of this although the legal mechanisms will eventually catch up with the big bully. If you have a problem with ICSTIS, then try and work with it. Who are you to decide what is right and what is wrong. You aren't credible, honourable, decent and above all, you don�t even operate on the basis of credible evidence or any kind legal framework. You know very well that this whole thing is nothing else but an overblown farce. Of course, from Vodafone's own point of view, your efforts have been very successful. We are all just waiting for you to launch your own myriad of services so you can take the advantage of your recent actions. Well done! If you are really who you say you are, why don't you go home to your corporate "bat cave" and do something useful for a change and reduce the prices of phone calls and texts and abolish rip off subscription to mobile services that all your corporate brothers are getting fat on. If you really are about helping people, than it is just and honourable to live up to that image and shake up Vodafone's web of deceit. Stop overcharging us and stop getting involved in this forum. You are just posting misleading information, leading people to believe that you are actually helping them. If you want to help, clean up your own house first. You are just using gullible consumers here to achieve your own corporate objectives. You preach one thing while doing another. You have no credibility left whatsoever. This forum is no place for Vodafone or any other big network. When you sort your own services out, we will all be happy to listen to what you have to say. Until then, go away, you have no friends here. Make no mistake. This is not an industry post. I am just another angry Vodafone customer who can�t take any more of your double sided ramblings. After all the problems people are having with Vodafone�s services, we have to listen how everyone else is bad and how Vodafone�s going to come down from the sky and save the day. Yeah, right, another Hollywood blockbuster. Makes your eyes water Unless of course we all want to listen how Hoover people want to say a thing or two about Bosch, and how their washing machines fall apart after a month or two... Very sad indeed
Re "Re: time to get this page back on track" posted by orangeman45 at 4:10 22/02/05 ...
Re "time to get this page back on track" posted by Grumbletext the mgnt. at 1:20 22/02/05 ...
No, I don't think so. Not under these circumstances at least. Maybe it's time it's shut down due to illegal activity,
Well, at least you have admitted that you are in bed with Vodafone.
You could at least put Vodafone as your heading for this site as I have lost faith in both your site and your intentions.
It is also very interesting how you have SUDDENLY decided to increase the security on the site and are trying to prevent anonymous posts. As soon as someone started telling the truth, you want to protect everything left, right and centre. Of course, it didn't bother you that people have been posting fabricated evidence here for months which has resulted in many unfair actions by Vodafone against smaller competition.
I URGE PEOPLE NOT TO USE THIS SITE AS IT HAS CLEARLY BEEN COMPROMISED AND IS ILLEGALY USING THE FALSE AND FABRICATED INFORMATION TO WAGE BUSINESS WARFARE.
PLEASE BE AWARE, THIS WEBSITE IS NOW OFFICIALLY SIDING WITH VODAFONE AND IS ENDORSING THEIR SPIN.
Re "time to get this page back on track" posted by Grumbletext the mgnt. at 1:20 22/02/05 ...
Well, at least you have admitted that you are in bed with Vodafone.
You could at least put Vodafone as your heading for this site as I have lost faith in both your site and your intentions.
It is also very interesting how you have SUDDENLY decided to increase the security on the site and are trying to prevent anonymous posts. As soon as someone started telling the truth, you want to protect everything left, right and centre. Of course, it didn't bother you that people have been posting fabricated evidence here for months which has resulted in many unfair actions by Vodafone against smaller competition.
I URGE PEOPLE NOT TO USE THIS SITE AS IT HAS CLEARLY BEEN COMPROMISED AND IS ILLEGALY USING THE FALSE AND FABRICATED INFORMATION TO WAGE BUSINESS WARFARE.
PLEASE BE AWARE, THIS WEBSITE IS NOW OFFICIALLY SIDING WITH VODAFONE AND IS ENDORSING THEIR SPIN.
Re "Re: Comment and plea to industry posters" posted by Grumbletext the mgnt. at 2:01 22/02/05 ...
Prove it. Don't believe a word of it
Even if what you are saying is remotely credible, what's behind the curtains? Why is Vodafone really doing this? What are your real motives? Since the incorporation of Vodafone, the company simply never did anything to help the consumer as such unless it was helping itself indirectly at the same time. Vodafone, just like any other big corporation was simply helping themselves, just like any other corporate giant. Everything in life is based on interest and gain so it's pointless to claim otherwise.
By associating yourself with this forum, you are rendering it useless. It is no longer open, fair, unbiased and honourable. You are just using it for your own corporate gains
ICSTIS isn't perfect but at least it's aim isn't to generate profits and to put the spin on this forum. The whole point of ICSTIS is that it is independent and can't directly benefit from damaging the competition which can't be said about Vodafone. Vodafone's services are leaving a lot to be desired in the customer satisfaction, value for money and ICSTIS compliance department. The fact that you are acting as bullies and have the ability, power, money and resources to conduct your services behind ICSTIS' back and continue to apply these dirty "so called" clean-up tactics behind the closed curtain doesn't mean that you are morally right.. Don't be fooled into thinking that people here can't see through all this. By discrediting ICSTIS on this forum, you are clearly showing to the industry and all the consumers that something in your management structure is AWOL and out of control. Voda is turning into a vigilante and the whole exercise becomes pointless and unfair. This is why we should see to it that some measures are taken and investigations conducted into Vodafone�s latest, illegal actions. Maybe we should involve MPs into this matter and finally get to the bottom of this although the legal mechanisms will eventually catch up with the big bully.
If you have a problem with ICSTIS, then try and work with it. Who are you to decide what is right and what is wrong. You aren't credible, honourable, decent and above all, you don�t even operate on the basis of credible evidence or any kind legal framework. You know very well that this whole thing is nothing else but an overblown farce.
Of course, from Vodafone's own point of view, your efforts have been very successful. We are all just waiting for you to launch your own myriad of services so you can take the advantage of your recent actions. Well done!
If you are really who you say you are, why don't you go home to your corporate "bat cave" and do something useful for a change and reduce the prices of phone calls and texts and abolish rip off subscription to mobile services that all your corporate brothers are getting fat on. If you really are about helping people, than it is just and honourable to live up to that image and shake up Vodafone's web of deceit.
Stop overcharging us and stop getting involved in this forum. You are just posting misleading information, leading people to believe that you are actually helping them. If you want to help, clean up your own house first. You are just using gullible consumers here to achieve your own corporate objectives. You preach one thing while doing another. You have no credibility left whatsoever.
This forum is no place for Vodafone or any other big network. When you sort your own services out, we will all be happy to listen to what you have to say. Until then, go away, you have no friends here.
Make no mistake. This is not an industry post. I am just another angry Vodafone customer who can�t take any more of your double sided ramblings. After all the problems people are having with Vodafone�s services, we have to listen how everyone else is bad and how Vodafone�s going to come down from the sky and save the day. Yeah, right, another Hollywood blockbuster. Makes your eyes water
Unless of course we all want to listen how Hoover people want to say a thing or two about Bosch, and how their washing machines fall apart after a month or two... Very sad indeed
Use this page to discuss the premium rate industry - this page is geared towards people, including those who work in it, discussing the industry itself - it is not the right place for consumers to report problems with premium rate messages - to do that you need to go here: http://www.grumbletext.co.uk/vt.php?t=333
Anyone posting on this page MUST register and activate their username within an hour or two of posting - posts from guests risk being deleted as a matter of course after this time.
In addition, if you purport to be from a company or organisation, then you MUST use your professional email address when submitting/registering/activating your username account, otherwise your posts will be taken down.
My apologies for taking a Draconian line on this subject viz this page, but there is a greater risk of people misrepresenting on this page if this policy is not adhered to.
Thanks, Adrian at Grumbletext
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